Two lifelong progressives—both Jewish, both secular, both done being told they're imagining it—on Zionism, the disinformation machine, and why singling out Israel should give you pause.
Why don't you call out Saudi Arabia for genocide against the Yemenis? We fund and support them. They're not even a democracy, and murder women for the crime of being "raped." And why "Israel" and not Netanyahu, or do you wish to be held accountable for everything Trump, ICE, & Hegseth's military do (if you're American)?
Except that there is no genocide. Not unless we make the word meaningless. Unless we want to start calling the coalition forces that broke Mosul genocidal too. Shall we start executing American veterans who participated?
So AIPAC supports Netanyahu, not Israel? I am honestly asking. I don’t want our military combined with any other country’s military. Period. But I don’t think protesting one genocide is bad because you are not protesting all genocides. And as an American I don’t want to be blamed for trump’s behavior. So then I must fight everyday to have him removed and I am trying.
Yes, AIPAC supports Netanyahu and others like him, so sort of like supporting Trump and Hegseth. Israelis are fighting every day to get rid of him. He’s used Trump’s playbook. And nobody’s saying every time you talk about war criminals you must list them all. That’s not practical. But if all one ever does is point to one human rights violation and won’t bother to learn what Azerbaijan just did to Armenians, Saudi Arabia to Yemenis ..can that person really care about universal human rights?
The problem is that if you say you are against the genocide, if you are against zionism. You are called antisemitic. This happens even to practicing Jewish people. The Israeli lobby has plenty of money to manipulate the population.
That's not what we said in the video. You can be for or against Zionism. You don't get to define it as white supremacy when it was a liberal and socialist project. That is an actual fact. Look up Theodor Herzl. "The Israel lobby has plenty of money to manipulate the population." Well, there you go. Saudi Arabia doesn't? Turkey doesn't? China doesn't? But you think it's only Israel. Why is that?
Well, ok. So why is nobody on The Left talking about Saudi Arabia, who we fund, whose govt has never been elected, who murders raped women and bombed 100,000 Yemenis into oblivion? What does Saudi Arabia do that makes their behavior worth nary a mention?
Thank you for saying out loud the problem with the far left. I'm anon religious Jew, but very culturally Jewish. I hate Netanyahu as much as I hate Trump and what they are both doing. Trump is ruining our country as is Netanyahu ruining Israel and causing antisemitism around the world. Israel has a right to exist. Where are the college protests against Russia and what it's doing to Ukraine? Where were the college protests against Hamas? All of it is bad, but what Netanyahu does is NOT my fault nor the fault of Jews around the world. He needs to go to prison, just like Trump. These Americans who blame all Jews need to look themselves in the eye. Are all Americans to blame for what Trump and his sycophants are doing? The same goes for Jews and probably most Israelis.
Exactly right, Ruth. Thank you. This was all we were asking for. Consistency. Russia. Until recently Orban. As you said, Hamas. Egypt. Saudi Arabia. Turkey. Ethiopia. Azerbaijan. We have funded them all. And for the umpteenth time, bc I'll have to keep saying it, Netanyahu is a war criminal. So are the leaders of these other countries. But no college protests against them. Just the Jewish state, which as you said, you and I are not responsible for.
I’ll say it then you can call me, the old Jewish woman an anti Semite. Conflating anti Zionism with anti semitism is the anti Semitism of this era. My 100 % Jewish ,h were never Zionist.. Their great sin was American assimilation
We don't conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semtism and I quite clearly say that in the video. You can be for or against it. You just don't get to define it as something it's not. It is not racism. It is not white supremacy. It is Jewish self-determination. A homeland, that was taken away. And I'll wait for everyone here in America to give their homes back to Native Americans, including you and me, and then we'll leave and go...where? Or only Israelis are required to do this?
Ok Cliff that’s cool. You make a lot of great points and those nations should also be called out. Is it fair to say that netenyahu and his murdering thugs are assholes? I think we can all agree that they are acting like assholes.
My friend, I appreciate your saying that. I really do. Wrt your second point, I don’t know how many times I said it in the video, but I’ll say it again: Bibi and his murdering thugs are assholes. Actually they’re not…that’s too nice.
He’s a war criminal. Indicted criminal. Racist. Evil democracy-attacking, rw POS who should rot in The Hague til his final breath. Please tell me that’s clear enough? Bibi’s he’s like Trump, Putin, Orban. But then let’s not just go after the Jew, but point out the horror show they all are.
I mean I get your point about how Israel is not being treated the same way as China, and other places but is the US actively participating in and funding those other injustices? And how actually true is it that this is a huge problem with the left. Yes, you’re going to get some self-described lefties spewing illiberal ideas but is that a problem inherit to leftist ideas or just a rando people problem?
If you watch the video you'll see may examples of those we're actively funding. Saudi Arabia. Over 100,000 dead Yemenis due to their bombing. We supply them with arms, fund them. We have funded Egypt. Syria. Somalia. Ethiopia. All have had mass killings. We gave weapons to Azerbaijan, who ethnically cleansed Armenians in Artsakh. But nobody has anything to say about those poor people killed. I call Netanyahu a war criminal. But so are the leaders of those other countries who have committed those atrocities. Yet nobody on The Left has much to say about those. In fact you didn't even know they were happening or that we were funding those countries, as you just asked about it. I'm not insulting you, I'm saying why is it that you think you know only about one country? And have you lost relatives in pogroms or a Holocaust? Do you think you might get why Jews are concerned? Have you ever told someone of another race to cool it, no biggie?
Cliff, I am Jewish, I am left, I hate AIPAC! They are right wing, without going into this now..I worked for your father at WBCN, back in the day.
People like Kamala brought out anti semites by refusing to allow even one question about occupied Palestine , talk about that! Talk about AIPAC funding terrible racist Dems…you are breaking my heart .
Marsha, you are not the first to think Danny Schechter was my dad. He was not. I knew him, appreciated him, but you'll notice the different spelling of our names. I used to joke and call him "dad" when I saw him places. As for AIPAC and Bibi, I loathe them. But you're really going to go with the "Kamala brought out the anti-Semites?" She wouldn't end our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Why are you not upset about their mass killing? She wouldn't end our relationship with Turkey. See Armenian genocide. And Kurds massacred. But I don't hear you talking about that. Just the Jewish state. The one that offered the peace agreement that Arafat rejected, that Abbas rejected, that got Rabin killed--he sacrificed his life for peace w Palestinians. But you're blaming every Israeli, as opposed to say, Bibi. Which I guess makes you responsible for everything Trump does?
“Occupied Palestine.” You mean Gaza, which is fully under Hamas control or the West Bank, which the PA agreed to a joint sharing agreement with Oslo. Stop using words that you don’t understand and stop infantilizing a population for shit that you wouldn’t tolerate from anyone else and, for the love of god, stop treating Jews differently than you do others. Unless you are going to argue that Americans should be prosecuted for the urban war in Mosul.
Look… terms like “Zionists” get confounded with”Israeli” and “Jewish”… terms like “Americans” get confounded with “White Nationalosm…. terms like Muslims” get confounded with “terrorists” and “antisemitic”…. terms like “protestors” gets confounded with “woke” and “enemies” of the state… are you starting to get it. These are all examples of the simple cognitive distortion called “overgeneralization” which itself exists when the elements of each group of confounded terms have different set sizes. For example the set size of “Zionists” is smaller than the set size of “Jewish” people. Because this is so obvious the question naturally arises as to why such cognitive distortions occur. And, the rather obvious motivation would be to “make a point”, the point usually being to justify a self-serving belief system. There is really therefore no reason to debate what this means or what that means, because when stripped to it’s logical basis it becomes clear that folks that argue this way are merely trapped in their own subjective echo chamber…. Please give THAT a thought. By the way this is one reason for the Buddhist warning against “name rupa”… names and labels.
Not buying it—or it’d happen equally. Just one small group attacked by: The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Black Death Massacres, East European Pogroms, Dreyfus Affair, Khmelnytsky Uprising, 2K yrs of passion plays & blood libel, Kielce Pogrom, Holocaust, Post-WWII Arab World Riots, Farhud
1/3 of its world population systematically incinerated..the same group magically blamed for a shitty leader murdering ppl when shitty leaders in non-democracies we fund are murdering ppl (Saudi, Syria, Ethiopia, etc).
Julie had a great phrase—goi-splaining. You’re goi-splaining. Would you tell Black Americans they make too big a deal of the Tulsa Massacre? If it’s all the same, why does the FBI report 2% of US pop that’s Jewish victims of 70% of religion-based hate crimes in 2024? Are you starting to get it?
What you are leaving out is the aggressiveness that Zionism has *always* exhibited. From Herzl's forumlation to "colonize" Palestine, to "land without a people for a people without a land," to the 1956 pre-emptive strike on Egypt (who was defending the Canal, not attacking Israel) etc etc. The excuse that American and British colonialists did it too, so why not Jews, is a really poor one. The Israeli right to exist is being forfeited, just like the US Confederates and the German Third Reich forfeited theirs.
Many/most of my best friends are Jews, some of them remain Zionists. I worry on their behalf
Cliff interrupted his guest and ruined her message waaay too many times for me to finish this video. Put your ego and personal story aside and let her continue her train of thought, Cliff. It’s the rule of interviewing.
But it wasn’t an interview. It was a conversation. We both planned to share stories bc we’ve both dealt w it, Joan. The rule of conversation. Converse.
However you wanna view me/what transpired knowing that, all good w me.
I'll say it again: Saudi Arabia. Turkey. Ethiopia. Egypt. Azerbaijan. We have funded them all. All have committed atrocities. I haven't seen you say one thing about any of them. WHY?
Thank you so much for this discussion. I continue to be open to learning and understanding the pov of our fellow Jewish Americans. Ignorance is no excuse for being judgemental of any group of people.
The Jews were expelled from England early in the 12th century, almost three centuries before the Inquisition. There is a mideval house in Lincoln that is even today is called "The Jews House".
This is correct, and the exact point we were making. Maybe the reason the only place held to a different standard is Israel is because the Soviets began a campaign to divide The West in the 1960s and spread Jew hatred bc Israel was our ally and Arab countries theirs? And maybe Putin knows that playbook because he was in the KGB?
Yeah it has been the motivation behind me writing those pieces & a future piece that’s covering a dark one. & the role of soviet propaganda especially during Stalin(who Putin openly admires) really plays into this. Despite Czarist Russia & other authoritarian regimes in the 18th & 19th centuries also playing a role. Then there’s popular media depictions of Jews, that people take as the template not realizing that they just cut off millions of others. Which is why I have been writing a diversity series to counter this perception also (ex. https://rue1b225.substack.com/p/a-part-of-my-religious-journey-35).
But one thing I have noticed is that there is a lot of people that aren’t willing to acknowledge or accept proven information or that it’s treated as some conspiracy to cover up something else.
There is a difference between antisemitism and calling out Israel for genocide
Why don't you call out Saudi Arabia for genocide against the Yemenis? We fund and support them. They're not even a democracy, and murder women for the crime of being "raped." And why "Israel" and not Netanyahu, or do you wish to be held accountable for everything Trump, ICE, & Hegseth's military do (if you're American)?
Except that there is no genocide. Not unless we make the word meaningless. Unless we want to start calling the coalition forces that broke Mosul genocidal too. Shall we start executing American veterans who participated?
Is that what you want to do?
So AIPAC supports Netanyahu, not Israel? I am honestly asking. I don’t want our military combined with any other country’s military. Period. But I don’t think protesting one genocide is bad because you are not protesting all genocides. And as an American I don’t want to be blamed for trump’s behavior. So then I must fight everyday to have him removed and I am trying.
Yes, AIPAC supports Netanyahu and others like him, so sort of like supporting Trump and Hegseth. Israelis are fighting every day to get rid of him. He’s used Trump’s playbook. And nobody’s saying every time you talk about war criminals you must list them all. That’s not practical. But if all one ever does is point to one human rights violation and won’t bother to learn what Azerbaijan just did to Armenians, Saudi Arabia to Yemenis ..can that person really care about universal human rights?
The problem is that if you say you are against the genocide, if you are against zionism. You are called antisemitic. This happens even to practicing Jewish people. The Israeli lobby has plenty of money to manipulate the population.
That's not what we said in the video. You can be for or against Zionism. You don't get to define it as white supremacy when it was a liberal and socialist project. That is an actual fact. Look up Theodor Herzl. "The Israel lobby has plenty of money to manipulate the population." Well, there you go. Saudi Arabia doesn't? Turkey doesn't? China doesn't? But you think it's only Israel. Why is that?
It is because people are against genocide, no matter who it is targeting and they may be against the government. That is probably their definition.
Well, ok. So why is nobody on The Left talking about Saudi Arabia, who we fund, whose govt has never been elected, who murders raped women and bombed 100,000 Yemenis into oblivion? What does Saudi Arabia do that makes their behavior worth nary a mention?
Thank you for saying out loud the problem with the far left. I'm anon religious Jew, but very culturally Jewish. I hate Netanyahu as much as I hate Trump and what they are both doing. Trump is ruining our country as is Netanyahu ruining Israel and causing antisemitism around the world. Israel has a right to exist. Where are the college protests against Russia and what it's doing to Ukraine? Where were the college protests against Hamas? All of it is bad, but what Netanyahu does is NOT my fault nor the fault of Jews around the world. He needs to go to prison, just like Trump. These Americans who blame all Jews need to look themselves in the eye. Are all Americans to blame for what Trump and his sycophants are doing? The same goes for Jews and probably most Israelis.
Exactly right, Ruth. Thank you. This was all we were asking for. Consistency. Russia. Until recently Orban. As you said, Hamas. Egypt. Saudi Arabia. Turkey. Ethiopia. Azerbaijan. We have funded them all. And for the umpteenth time, bc I'll have to keep saying it, Netanyahu is a war criminal. So are the leaders of these other countries. But no college protests against them. Just the Jewish state, which as you said, you and I are not responsible for.
I’ll say it then you can call me, the old Jewish woman an anti Semite. Conflating anti Zionism with anti semitism is the anti Semitism of this era. My 100 % Jewish ,h were never Zionist.. Their great sin was American assimilation
We don't conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semtism and I quite clearly say that in the video. You can be for or against it. You just don't get to define it as something it's not. It is not racism. It is not white supremacy. It is Jewish self-determination. A homeland, that was taken away. And I'll wait for everyone here in America to give their homes back to Native Americans, including you and me, and then we'll leave and go...where? Or only Israelis are required to do this?
Ok Cliff that’s cool. You make a lot of great points and those nations should also be called out. Is it fair to say that netenyahu and his murdering thugs are assholes? I think we can all agree that they are acting like assholes.
My friend, I appreciate your saying that. I really do. Wrt your second point, I don’t know how many times I said it in the video, but I’ll say it again: Bibi and his murdering thugs are assholes. Actually they’re not…that’s too nice.
He’s a war criminal. Indicted criminal. Racist. Evil democracy-attacking, rw POS who should rot in The Hague til his final breath. Please tell me that’s clear enough? Bibi’s he’s like Trump, Putin, Orban. But then let’s not just go after the Jew, but point out the horror show they all are.
I mean I get your point about how Israel is not being treated the same way as China, and other places but is the US actively participating in and funding those other injustices? And how actually true is it that this is a huge problem with the left. Yes, you’re going to get some self-described lefties spewing illiberal ideas but is that a problem inherit to leftist ideas or just a rando people problem?
If you watch the video you'll see may examples of those we're actively funding. Saudi Arabia. Over 100,000 dead Yemenis due to their bombing. We supply them with arms, fund them. We have funded Egypt. Syria. Somalia. Ethiopia. All have had mass killings. We gave weapons to Azerbaijan, who ethnically cleansed Armenians in Artsakh. But nobody has anything to say about those poor people killed. I call Netanyahu a war criminal. But so are the leaders of those other countries who have committed those atrocities. Yet nobody on The Left has much to say about those. In fact you didn't even know they were happening or that we were funding those countries, as you just asked about it. I'm not insulting you, I'm saying why is it that you think you know only about one country? And have you lost relatives in pogroms or a Holocaust? Do you think you might get why Jews are concerned? Have you ever told someone of another race to cool it, no biggie?
Cliff, I am Jewish, I am left, I hate AIPAC! They are right wing, without going into this now..I worked for your father at WBCN, back in the day.
People like Kamala brought out anti semites by refusing to allow even one question about occupied Palestine , talk about that! Talk about AIPAC funding terrible racist Dems…you are breaking my heart .
Marsha, you are not the first to think Danny Schechter was my dad. He was not. I knew him, appreciated him, but you'll notice the different spelling of our names. I used to joke and call him "dad" when I saw him places. As for AIPAC and Bibi, I loathe them. But you're really going to go with the "Kamala brought out the anti-Semites?" She wouldn't end our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Why are you not upset about their mass killing? She wouldn't end our relationship with Turkey. See Armenian genocide. And Kurds massacred. But I don't hear you talking about that. Just the Jewish state. The one that offered the peace agreement that Arafat rejected, that Abbas rejected, that got Rabin killed--he sacrificed his life for peace w Palestinians. But you're blaming every Israeli, as opposed to say, Bibi. Which I guess makes you responsible for everything Trump does?
“Occupied Palestine.” You mean Gaza, which is fully under Hamas control or the West Bank, which the PA agreed to a joint sharing agreement with Oslo. Stop using words that you don’t understand and stop infantilizing a population for shit that you wouldn’t tolerate from anyone else and, for the love of god, stop treating Jews differently than you do others. Unless you are going to argue that Americans should be prosecuted for the urban war in Mosul.
It wasn’t under Hamas control when their houses and business were distressed .., and what of it was?
My long time penpal and his whole family in Gaza were murdered by Israel,homes and business bombed after his sister married some Hamas guy
Look… terms like “Zionists” get confounded with”Israeli” and “Jewish”… terms like “Americans” get confounded with “White Nationalosm…. terms like Muslims” get confounded with “terrorists” and “antisemitic”…. terms like “protestors” gets confounded with “woke” and “enemies” of the state… are you starting to get it. These are all examples of the simple cognitive distortion called “overgeneralization” which itself exists when the elements of each group of confounded terms have different set sizes. For example the set size of “Zionists” is smaller than the set size of “Jewish” people. Because this is so obvious the question naturally arises as to why such cognitive distortions occur. And, the rather obvious motivation would be to “make a point”, the point usually being to justify a self-serving belief system. There is really therefore no reason to debate what this means or what that means, because when stripped to it’s logical basis it becomes clear that folks that argue this way are merely trapped in their own subjective echo chamber…. Please give THAT a thought. By the way this is one reason for the Buddhist warning against “name rupa”… names and labels.
Not buying it—or it’d happen equally. Just one small group attacked by: The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Black Death Massacres, East European Pogroms, Dreyfus Affair, Khmelnytsky Uprising, 2K yrs of passion plays & blood libel, Kielce Pogrom, Holocaust, Post-WWII Arab World Riots, Farhud
1/3 of its world population systematically incinerated..the same group magically blamed for a shitty leader murdering ppl when shitty leaders in non-democracies we fund are murdering ppl (Saudi, Syria, Ethiopia, etc).
Julie had a great phrase—goi-splaining. You’re goi-splaining. Would you tell Black Americans they make too big a deal of the Tulsa Massacre? If it’s all the same, why does the FBI report 2% of US pop that’s Jewish victims of 70% of religion-based hate crimes in 2024? Are you starting to get it?
I appreciate the nod to open dialogue.
What you are leaving out is the aggressiveness that Zionism has *always* exhibited. From Herzl's forumlation to "colonize" Palestine, to "land without a people for a people without a land," to the 1956 pre-emptive strike on Egypt (who was defending the Canal, not attacking Israel) etc etc. The excuse that American and British colonialists did it too, so why not Jews, is a really poor one. The Israeli right to exist is being forfeited, just like the US Confederates and the German Third Reich forfeited theirs.
Many/most of my best friends are Jews, some of them remain Zionists. I worry on their behalf
Cliff interrupted his guest and ruined her message waaay too many times for me to finish this video. Put your ego and personal story aside and let her continue her train of thought, Cliff. It’s the rule of interviewing.
But it wasn’t an interview. It was a conversation. We both planned to share stories bc we’ve both dealt w it, Joan. The rule of conversation. Converse.
However you wanna view me/what transpired knowing that, all good w me.
Take turns - the rule of conversation. No talking over either.
Yes, I'm sure your conversations, especially over Facetime or Zoom, go exactly like that.
The USA is the oddest funder of Israel. China funds itself
Biggest
I'll say it again: Saudi Arabia. Turkey. Ethiopia. Egypt. Azerbaijan. We have funded them all. All have committed atrocities. I haven't seen you say one thing about any of them. WHY?
Thank you so much for this discussion. I continue to be open to learning and understanding the pov of our fellow Jewish Americans. Ignorance is no excuse for being judgemental of any group of people.
A debate from six years ago, still well worth watching today. The motion being debated: "Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VTt_THL4A
The Jews were expelled from England early in the 12th century, almost three centuries before the Inquisition. There is a mideval house in Lincoln that is even today is called "The Jews House".
After listening to this podcast, I now better understand why my father hid his heritage from his children.
Doesn’t help that a lot of the rhetoric in the discourse has been influenced by a lot materials with dark histories that helps no one.
https://rue1b225.substack.com/p/the-canard-of-dual-loyalty?r=1x7pap&utm_medium=ios
https://rue1b225.substack.com/p/blood-libel-and-warmonger?r=1x7pap&utm_medium=ios
https://rue1b225.substack.com/p/the-canard-of-money?r=1x7pap&utm_medium=ios
This is correct, and the exact point we were making. Maybe the reason the only place held to a different standard is Israel is because the Soviets began a campaign to divide The West in the 1960s and spread Jew hatred bc Israel was our ally and Arab countries theirs? And maybe Putin knows that playbook because he was in the KGB?
Yeah it has been the motivation behind me writing those pieces & a future piece that’s covering a dark one. & the role of soviet propaganda especially during Stalin(who Putin openly admires) really plays into this. Despite Czarist Russia & other authoritarian regimes in the 18th & 19th centuries also playing a role. Then there’s popular media depictions of Jews, that people take as the template not realizing that they just cut off millions of others. Which is why I have been writing a diversity series to counter this perception also (ex. https://rue1b225.substack.com/p/a-part-of-my-religious-journey-35).
But one thing I have noticed is that there is a lot of people that aren’t willing to acknowledge or accept proven information or that it’s treated as some conspiracy to cover up something else.
An underlying premise that I think gets to the heart of the matter is the fundamental question of whether Israel simply has the right to exist.
Considerable ambivalence on this point often masquerading tendentiously.