Two lifelong progressives—both Jewish, both secular, both done being told they're imagining it—on Zionism, the disinformation machine, and why singling out Israel should give you pause.
At first I defended Netanyahu due to the October 7th invasion. I can no longer defend that war criminal. He needs to be in prison along with Trump & Putin. He wants war to stay out of prison.
Why don't you call out Saudi Arabia for genocide against the Yemenis? We fund and support them. They're not even a democracy, and murder women for the crime of being "raped." And why "Israel" and not Netanyahu, or do you wish to be held accountable for everything Trump, ICE, & Hegseth's military do (if you're American)?
First, Cliff, the existence of other "evil" (authoritarian, repressive) regimes is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for Israel. Israel deserves the condemnation its actions warrant (and so do other regimes). More significantly, we expect and perhaps don't call out repression from a Saudi Arabia, a Russia, etc. (BTW, many American progressives have long objected to our relationship with some Middle East/Arab nations.) But Israel IS supposed to be different; it IS supposed to be a bastion of democracy. And its oppression and repression is unacceptable to many liberal Jews like me. PS: Netanyahu is Israel until he's not, same as Trump; and Americans are, in fact, called to account for Trump in other parts of the world.
47 and Bibi and MBS are all criminals. That doesn’t make the citizens of the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia responsible for the crimes against humanity. But there seems to be a certain glee in putting the blame for Bibi on all Jews. And I have walked away from association with people who have gone so far as to say they “understand” the hatred against Jews. Seems like the same old story on repeat and just as deadly.
Not much. You can call Israel (and especially Netanyahu) out for war crimes (He's definitely a war criminal) but "genocide" is a stretch and I would like anyone who tosses around that term to show me where they were concerned about Yemen or South Sudan years before October 2023.
Except that there is no genocide. Not unless we make the word meaningless. Unless we want to start calling the coalition forces that broke Mosul genocidal too. Shall we start executing American veterans who participated?
Exactly. "Genocide" has a specific meaning and it's a stretch to apply it to Gaza when "war crimes" is more appropriate. And I can't help feeling people are being pushed to use it to diminish the Holocaust.
So you include Oct 7th when the most Jews per capita were murdered since The Holocaust? And clearly what Saudi Arabia’s doing to Yemenis, 100s of 1000s dead. Azerbaijan to Armenians. Sudan. Syrian kids gassed.
You’re like me, right? I talk about all of these AND point out Bibi’s a war criminal. Or do you only talk about Israel for some reason?
Are you being serious? So...let me get this straight. Bc *your* Christian Trumper family supports Israel, that means the rest of us must respond by...hating Israel? Hitler was primarily a vegetarian. Wow, you must really have it in for all vegetarians.
Also, as a point? Unless you have access to the IDF’s reports from their MAG where they do proportionality assessments, you’re putting the car super ahead of the horse.
Or we could point to Mosul. When the coalition flattened the city to drive out a terrorist organization that did not differentiate, put weapons in civilian buildings and areas, and which had a higher civilian/casualty rate than what we see right now? I seriously want someone to tell me if we’re supposed to be arresting Americans and other coalition forces for genocide if we’re accusing Israel of the same when they’re dealing with Hamas.
If America was replacing non-Jews with Jews in the process of fighting ISIS, this might be a sound comparison. But yes, indiscriminate carpet-bombing is wrong and should be illegal.
Ethnocentric? If Israel was ethnocentric? Then they wouldn’t allow Palestinians into their part of the territory within the boundaries at all. This is just stupid.
So AIPAC supports Netanyahu, not Israel? I am honestly asking. I don’t want our military combined with any other country’s military. Period. But I don’t think protesting one genocide is bad because you are not protesting all genocides. And as an American I don’t want to be blamed for trump’s behavior. So then I must fight everyday to have him removed and I am trying.
Yes, AIPAC supports Netanyahu and others like him, so sort of like supporting Trump and Hegseth. Israelis are fighting every day to get rid of him. He’s used Trump’s playbook. And nobody’s saying every time you talk about war criminals you must list them all. That’s not practical. But if all one ever does is point to one human rights violation and won’t bother to learn what Azerbaijan just did to Armenians, Saudi Arabia to Yemenis ..can that person really care about universal human rights?
The problem is that if you say you are against the genocide, if you are against zionism. You are called antisemitic. This happens even to practicing Jewish people. The Israeli lobby has plenty of money to manipulate the population.
That's not what we said in the video. You can be for or against Zionism. You don't get to define it as white supremacy when it was a liberal and socialist project. That is an actual fact. Look up Theodor Herzl. "The Israel lobby has plenty of money to manipulate the population." Well, there you go. Saudi Arabia doesn't? Turkey doesn't? China doesn't? But you think it's only Israel. Why is that?
Thank you for saying out loud the problem with the far left. I'm anon religious Jew, but very culturally Jewish. I hate Netanyahu as much as I hate Trump and what they are both doing. Trump is ruining our country as is Netanyahu ruining Israel and causing antisemitism around the world. Israel has a right to exist. Where are the college protests against Russia and what it's doing to Ukraine? Where were the college protests against Hamas? All of it is bad, but what Netanyahu does is NOT my fault nor the fault of Jews around the world. He needs to go to prison, just like Trump. These Americans who blame all Jews need to look themselves in the eye. Are all Americans to blame for what Trump and his sycophants are doing? The same goes for Jews and probably most Israelis.
Exactly right, Ruth. Thank you. This was all we were asking for. Consistency. Russia. Until recently Orban. As you said, Hamas. Egypt. Saudi Arabia. Turkey. Ethiopia. Azerbaijan. We have funded them all. And for the umpteenth time, bc I'll have to keep saying it, Netanyahu is a war criminal. So are the leaders of these other countries. But no college protests against them. Just the Jewish state, which as you said, you and I are not responsible for.
I'll be brief, because I already said it above: 1) Israel alone among the countries you cite is a democracy, and rightfully held to a higher standard of expectation. 2) There is an (organized) effort in support of Palestinian rights, they protest, boycott, etc. Campus demonstrations are part of that. I assume you didn't disagree with other human rights campaigns (against apartheid, for example). So why not Israel, maybe you're the one with the double standard?
W/ respect, I’ll say it again: We are a democracy—what about us? Hungary was rated one of the strongest, most open democracies in the world til Orban was elected, and changed it all. Russia was briefly a democracy. And in Gaza they elected Hamas. This doesn’t hold water. Democracies elect tyrants, you stand up to ALL of them. Equally. 2) I walked out of my classroom to protest Apartheid, of course I agree. But when Protocols of the Elders of Zion style propaganda shows up too, I should be silent? Or If some don’t have the money to fund a movement, we ignore it?
If you’re claiming I’m saying “why not Israel” you clearly didn’t watch the video and are attributing to me things I never said. Bibi, and Israel under him, deserve HEAVY critique. He is a war criminal. I want consistency. Why no movements vs MBS/Saudi Arabia? Against Putin for Ukraine on campuses? Don’t blame American Jews or all Israelis for what Bibi’s done—or you & I are responsible for all Trump’s done. This seems unfair?
Americans ARE to blame for what the Trump regime is doing. Your lauded system of government out gave him power and is failing to hold him to account. Americans talks lot about doing something but ... it is all talk. No action. Always wait until X whensimebody else will do something
And Ruth The same is true of Netanyahu. It's no good simply hating him. Your country funds him. His country supports him. Israel IS to blame for all the death destruction and intentional atrocities it commits. It earns the hate others have for it.
The problem for you is that the Jewish voices who oppose the atrocities are so little heard and in many cases are heard more defending their Jewishness than opposing the atrocity. There is no credible way of walking that fence.
Either you get very much louder and angrier in your opposition or be quieter in your defence. Because you're at the proverbial level of arguing your one black friend proves you're not racist.
People notice that. It is not a good look.
Especially since Israel has been an aggressor and committee of evil acts for decades. Always hiding behind the holocaust and accusing every critic of antisemitism.
It has reached the point where accusations of antisemitism have become meaningless other than as approval of what Israel does.
Bluntly, I support and defend the rights of Jews and groups of any religion and yet am proud to be called antisemitic by israel.
All decent people should be proud to be called antisemitic by Israel. It means Israel knows it is doing wrong and has no defence of it's actions so resorts to the name calling.
And again bluntly every Jewish person who doesn't support Israel's action should be ahead of me in the criticism. They should be louder. They should be more obvious.
Because it is their own reputation to defend. It is their own faith to defend ... against Israel. And they are not being obvious enough for people to notice. For the mediati have no option but to report their criticism.
Jews need to vigorously attack Israel in order to defend their faith.
And leave the rest of us to oppose all other groups that need to be opposed. We're capable of opposing all bad guys.
Thank you so much for this discussion. I continue to be open to learning and understanding the pov of our fellow Jewish Americans. Ignorance is no excuse for being judgemental of any group of people.
Thank you I so appreciate this. As those on The Left, we should all be this way. I’ve been wrong about plenty of things. I want to learn and get it right. We will keep trying to have these conversations. Because context and consistency are crucial. Bibi is evil. But if you’re only ever talking about him then you can’t claim to care about human rights when there are so many other states doing horrific things
I loved this discussion today! I appreciate the directness and honesty. It helps further educate and I couldn’t agree more. I so want to see our multiracial/multi ethnic/ multi religious culture to endure with equality for all! Idealistic to the death I guess. I’ve sent letters to Congress about stopping subsidies across the board for countries and corporations and devoting the time to truly review the need, intent etc so we quit subsidizing genocide in so many countries and so much more. Then I see the likes of Hegseth representing the US at Normandy and I could literally cry! What an utter fool! Anyway thank you!
Thank you so much, Liz. That’s how Julie and I felt. It is important. We can’t be frightened to talk to family. And that’s what we all our. Once you become scared to do that, or just accept conventional wisdom, you’re either MAGA or corporate media, respectively. And we are neither.
Well, ok. So why is nobody on The Left talking about Saudi Arabia, who we fund, whose govt has never been elected, who murders raped women and bombed 100,000 Yemenis into oblivion? What does Saudi Arabia do that makes their behavior worth nary a mention?
We do talk about SA, and others. You find it convenient to ignore those protests and only notice ones in favour of Palestinians.
In my country I can be arrested on terrorism charges if I demonstrate to support Palestine. Many white haired elderly ladies have been. I am not arrested if I demonstrate to support Israel
There is a clear double standard in many western countries .. in favour of Israel.
I’ll say it then you can call me, the old Jewish woman an anti Semite. Conflating anti Zionism with anti semitism is the anti Semitism of this era. My 100 % Jewish ,h were never Zionist.. Their great sin was American assimilation
We don't conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semtism and I quite clearly say that in the video. You can be for or against it. You just don't get to define it as something it's not. It is not racism. It is not white supremacy. It is Jewish self-determination. A homeland, that was taken away. And I'll wait for everyone here in America to give their homes back to Native Americans, including you and me, and then we'll leave and go...where? Or only Israelis are required to do this?
Ok Cliff that’s cool. You make a lot of great points and those nations should also be called out. Is it fair to say that netenyahu and his murdering thugs are assholes? I think we can all agree that they are acting like assholes.
My friend, I appreciate your saying that. I really do. Wrt your second point, I don’t know how many times I said it in the video, but I’ll say it again: Bibi and his murdering thugs are assholes. Actually they’re not…that’s too nice.
He’s a war criminal. Indicted criminal. Racist. Evil democracy-attacking, rw POS who should rot in The Hague til his final breath. Please tell me that’s clear enough? Bibi’s like Trump, Putin, Orban, MBS. But let’s not just go after the Jew, but point out the horror show they all are.
Marsha , you know Stephen Miller's Jewish, yes? You can't say "I'm Jewish" & just say anti-Semitic things like "lives off US tax dollars?" Would you say that about African nations we rightly helped w USAID pre-DOGE? Or just Israel? Where Rabin gave his life for peace as Arafat ditched a deal w 97% of his demands met--he was scared to die. Re apartheid, especially under war criminal BIbi, I'm sure there's been discrimination, abuse, murder.
But apartheid has a meaning, you can't make it up. Israel has a Palestinian Supreme Court Justice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Kabub). That's not apartheid. Why not stick to truth & not slurs? Bibi = Trump, Likud his enablers, all are evil/belong in The Hague, kill Gazan kids. Isn't that enough w/out attacking every Israeli (we have Trump, so you killed Alex Peretti? Am I getting collective responsibility right?). The facts are damning enough.
Criticism,of Israel is not anti semitic!and Israel lives off money from the IS and Uzk, while they burn houses of palestiniians, particulary i. Gaza. I was helping to support a family in Gaza, . They are ll dead now, houses and business bombed. Ill quit Cliff but you should read first hsnd reports,
Y from the USA and the UK… that’s the purpose of AIPAC.you j
Thank you, my friend, that is kind of you to say. I'm just trying to fight propaganda and bring consistency, context, nuance and history to conversations that have been sorely lacking lately.
I mean I get your point about how Israel is not being treated the same way as China, and other places but is the US actively participating in and funding those other injustices? And how actually true is it that this is a huge problem with the left. Yes, you’re going to get some self-described lefties spewing illiberal ideas but is that a problem inherit to leftist ideas or just a rando people problem?
If you watch the video you'll see may examples of those we're actively funding. Saudi Arabia. Over 100,000 dead Yemenis due to their bombing. We supply them with arms, fund them. We have funded Egypt. Syria. Somalia. Ethiopia. All have had mass killings. We gave weapons to Azerbaijan, who ethnically cleansed Armenians in Artsakh. But nobody has anything to say about those poor people killed. I call Netanyahu a war criminal. But so are the leaders of those other countries who have committed those atrocities. In fact you didn't even know they were happening or that we were funding those countries, as you just asked about it. I'm not insulting you, I'm saying why is it you know only about the crimes of the Jewish leader? Have you lost relatives in pogroms or a Holocaust? Do you think you might get why Jews are concerned? Have you ever told someone of another race to cool it, no biggie?
Cliff, I am Jewish, I am left, I hate AIPAC! They are right wing, without going into this now..I worked for your father at WBCN, back in the day.
People like Kamala brought out anti semites by refusing to allow even one question about occupied Palestine , talk about that! Talk about AIPAC funding terrible racist Dems…you are breaking my heart .
Marsha, you are not the first to think Danny Schechter was my dad. He was not. I knew him, appreciated him, but you'll notice the different spelling of our names. I used to joke and call him "dad" when I saw him places. As for AIPAC and Bibi, I loathe them. But you're really going to go with the "Kamala brought out the anti-Semites?" She wouldn't end our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Why are you not upset about their mass killing? She wouldn't end our relationship with Turkey. See Armenian genocide. And Kurds massacred. But I don't hear you talking about that. Just the Jewish state. The one that offered the peace agreement that Arafat rejected, that Abbas rejected, that got Rabin killed--he sacrificed his life for peace w Palestinians. But you're blaming every Israeli, as opposed to say, Bibi. Which I guess makes you responsible for everything Trump does?
Thanks for ending my confusion about Danny. I should have noticed myself. The word in my circle was that you are his son. oops.
I’ll stick with my remarks about Kamala! I watched in real time as she refused to deal with questions about occupied historic Palestine.She actually refused questions,!
The corrupting influence of AIPAC,especially among Democrats has eliminated the option of a actual euro style social democratic style party. I know that isn’t the only reason but it certainly adds.
Demands for towing the Zionist line has made the Dems intolerable to many, incuding me, I have only lived in blue states so I always vote Green . Progressives hate Israel because it is a racist settlor colonial state, now engaged in genocide. I’m friends with the sonn of a famous general, who is a leftist. There are actually two , Israel is the Algeria of this era.
“Occupied Palestine.” You mean Gaza, which is fully under Hamas control or the West Bank, which the PA agreed to a joint sharing agreement with Oslo. Stop using words that you don’t understand and stop infantilizing a population for shit that you wouldn’t tolerate from anyone else and, for the love of god, stop treating Jews differently than you do others. Unless you are going to argue that Americans should be prosecuted for the urban war in Mosul.
What you are leaving out is the aggressiveness that Zionism has *always* exhibited. From Herzl's forumlation to "colonize" Palestine, to "land without a people for a people without a land," to the 1956 pre-emptive strike on Egypt (who was defending the Canal, not attacking Israel) etc etc. The excuse that American and British colonialists did it too, so why not Jews, is a really poor one. The Israeli right to exist is being forfeited, just like the US Confederates and the German Third Reich forfeited theirs.
Many/most of my best friends are Jews, some of them remain Zionists. I worry on their behalf
I appreciate your first line. Re the rest: Why is Israel the only country asked to forfeit land when WWI and WWII artificially drew many lines, and Israel’s been around longer than more than half the countries in the world? Are you American? If so, you’ll return your land to Native Americans tomorrow, yes?
As for 1956, Nasser wasn’t defending anything, he was blocking Israeli access to the Canal—ie their shipping. An act of war But I guess, again, Israel’s the only country that must take that shit and not respond?
Remind me, who attacked who Yom Kippur ‘73? In ‘48, as soon as Israel was a state they were attacked by Arab militias and many Arab states. In ‘67 Egypt expelled UN peacekeepers, mobilized troops in Sinai, cut off Israeli shipping. Shall I go on? None of this justifies BIbi the murderous slug who should be in The Hague. But you tell on yourself by comparing a country for Jewish self determination w the Third Reich and Confederates.
You’ve twisted the story about Egypt in ‘56. Nasser was threatening everyone’s access to the canal, mostly the British, by claiming control over it as was provided in the treaty of 1856. The Israeli’s thought they could piggy back on Britain and France’s military efforts to retain the status quo ante and pre-emptively hit the Arab enemy. Like I said, Zionist aggression.
And, a true question: Are you guys alleging that with 78 years of existence, Israel is older than half the world’s countries? I suppose that could be true, but, even so, it’s like the “right to exist” construct: You don’t get to be a country because of either a “right to exist” or some longevity test. Not the right criteria
Look, I get it that Israel was promised a homeland. And that Zionists have tried to make it happen with both legal and illegal means for nearly 150 years. And that anti-Jewish elements are a real problem. I’ve spent most of my life thinking “the good guys”—the Jews I know and the US gov’t I’m supposed to have some influence over—were working out a 2-state solution, something reasonable for everyone. Finding out that that was an obfuscating lie has been a trauma.
But today’s world is just not going to accept the tactics of Meyer Kehane, Baruch Goldstein or Bezalel Smotrich which is what is apparently (to all) happening in today’s Zionist state
"The Israeli right to exist is being forfeited" <-- why is Israel the only country in the world that has to defend its right to exist? They've been a country to close to 80 years already. They are older than well more than half of the countries of the world. Does anybody ever ask any other country to justify its existence?
You don’t deal with my point about Zionist aggression. Construing children shot in the head or chest and whole towns reduced to rubble as “defending” takes too much denial and the world is sick of it.
And pretending it’s an “easy answer to an easy question” is part of the problem.
And you don’t contend w mine. Why have you not returned your land to Native Americans, or it’s just ok for you? Zionist aggression, really? I mean you’re really going w that pablum (and anti-Semitism, but you have “Jewish friends” so it’s good). Have you seen what’s happened in Syria?
Would you make the same comment when kids were gassed to death—600,000 massacred? But I guess you and the world aren’t “sick” of that and you’d never say about an Arab country what you just said about Israel bc that would make you racist, right? So just Jews. It’s ok to smear them. Now please tell me when you’ll be turning the keys to your house over to the Native American tribe that once lived there.
Well maybe you think those Native Americans have the right to violently demand the keys to my house or yours. Seems to be the Zionist way… but NOT the Jewish way. Please don’t do that cheap shot.
Yes -- it's an ugly war, and many (including Cliff, and me) think that Israel has gone too far in their response. But what does that have to do with Israel's forfeiting their right to exist? Does anyone say that about any other country in the world? And, do you recall who started the current war on October 7 with unspeakable atrocities? And do you recall how many supported Hamas' attacks *even before Israel responded*? Now what does *that* say?
Look… terms like “Zionists” get confounded with”Israeli” and “Jewish”… terms like “Americans” get confounded with “White Nationalosm…. terms like Muslims” get confounded with “terrorists” and “antisemitic”…. terms like “protestors” gets confounded with “woke” and “enemies” of the state… are you starting to get it. These are all examples of the simple cognitive distortion called “overgeneralization” which itself exists when the elements of each group of confounded terms have different set sizes. For example the set size of “Zionists” is smaller than the set size of “Jewish” people. Because this is so obvious the question naturally arises as to why such cognitive distortions occur. And, the rather obvious motivation would be to “make a point”, the point usually being to justify a self-serving belief system. There is really therefore no reason to debate what this means or what that means, because when stripped to it’s logical basis it becomes clear that folks that argue this way are merely trapped in their own subjective echo chamber…. Please give THAT a thought. By the way this is one reason for the Buddhist warning against “name rupa”… names and labels.
Not buying it—or it’d happen equally. Just one small group attacked by: The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Black Death Massacres, East European Pogroms, Dreyfus Affair, Khmelnytsky Uprising, 2K yrs of passion plays & blood libel, Kielce Pogrom, Holocaust, Post-WWII Arab World Riots, Farhud
1/3 of its world population systematically incinerated..the same group magically blamed for a shitty leader murdering ppl when shitty leaders in non-democracies we fund are murdering ppl (Saudi, Syria, Ethiopia, etc).
Julie had a great phrase—goi-splaining. You’re goi-splaining. Would you tell Black Americans they make too big a deal of the Tulsa Massacre? If it’s all the same, why does the FBI report 2% of US pop that’s Jewish victims of 70% of religion-based hate crimes in 2024? Are you starting to get it?
Cliff interrupted his guest and ruined her message waaay too many times for me to finish this video. Put your ego and personal story aside and let her continue her train of thought, Cliff. It’s the rule of interviewing.
But it wasn’t an interview. It was a conversation. We both planned to share stories bc we’ve both dealt w it, Joan. The rule of conversation. Converse.
However you wanna view me/what transpired knowing that, all good w me.
I'll say it again: Saudi Arabia. Turkey. Ethiopia. Egypt. Azerbaijan. We have funded them all. All have committed atrocities. I haven't seen you say one thing about any of them. WHY?
At first I defended Netanyahu due to the October 7th invasion. I can no longer defend that war criminal. He needs to be in prison along with Trump & Putin. He wants war to stay out of prison.
As I said in our video, I agree 1000%. I wish he were in The Hague right now forever.
There is a difference between antisemitism and calling out Israel for genocide
Why don't you call out Saudi Arabia for genocide against the Yemenis? We fund and support them. They're not even a democracy, and murder women for the crime of being "raped." And why "Israel" and not Netanyahu, or do you wish to be held accountable for everything Trump, ICE, & Hegseth's military do (if you're American)?
First, Cliff, the existence of other "evil" (authoritarian, repressive) regimes is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for Israel. Israel deserves the condemnation its actions warrant (and so do other regimes). More significantly, we expect and perhaps don't call out repression from a Saudi Arabia, a Russia, etc. (BTW, many American progressives have long objected to our relationship with some Middle East/Arab nations.) But Israel IS supposed to be different; it IS supposed to be a bastion of democracy. And its oppression and repression is unacceptable to many liberal Jews like me. PS: Netanyahu is Israel until he's not, same as Trump; and Americans are, in fact, called to account for Trump in other parts of the world.
47 and Bibi and MBS are all criminals. That doesn’t make the citizens of the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia responsible for the crimes against humanity. But there seems to be a certain glee in putting the blame for Bibi on all Jews. And I have walked away from association with people who have gone so far as to say they “understand” the hatred against Jews. Seems like the same old story on repeat and just as deadly.
Yup, you have it exactly right. That's happened with Jews. Not Americans or Saudis, though.
Not much. You can call Israel (and especially Netanyahu) out for war crimes (He's definitely a war criminal) but "genocide" is a stretch and I would like anyone who tosses around that term to show me where they were concerned about Yemen or South Sudan years before October 2023.
Except that there is no genocide. Not unless we make the word meaningless. Unless we want to start calling the coalition forces that broke Mosul genocidal too. Shall we start executing American veterans who participated?
Exactly. "Genocide" has a specific meaning and it's a stretch to apply it to Gaza when "war crimes" is more appropriate. And I can't help feeling people are being pushed to use it to diminish the Holocaust.
Ethnocentric mass murder by any other name is just as shitty.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/leading-genocide-scholars-organization-says-israel-is-committing-genocide-in-gaza
So you include Oct 7th when the most Jews per capita were murdered since The Holocaust? And clearly what Saudi Arabia’s doing to Yemenis, 100s of 1000s dead. Azerbaijan to Armenians. Sudan. Syrian kids gassed.
You’re like me, right? I talk about all of these AND point out Bibi’s a war criminal. Or do you only talk about Israel for some reason?
Also, my Christian Trumper family doesn't think they'll burn in hell if they don't adequately support Azerbaijan.
Are you being serious? So...let me get this straight. Bc *your* Christian Trumper family supports Israel, that means the rest of us must respond by...hating Israel? Hitler was primarily a vegetarian. Wow, you must really have it in for all vegetarians.
Also, as a point? Unless you have access to the IDF’s reports from their MAG where they do proportionality assessments, you’re putting the car super ahead of the horse.
So unless we're privy to insider info, we can't see with our eyes the disproportionate response to 10/7? This is an appeal to ignorance.
Or we could point to Mosul. When the coalition flattened the city to drive out a terrorist organization that did not differentiate, put weapons in civilian buildings and areas, and which had a higher civilian/casualty rate than what we see right now? I seriously want someone to tell me if we’re supposed to be arresting Americans and other coalition forces for genocide if we’re accusing Israel of the same when they’re dealing with Hamas.
If America was replacing non-Jews with Jews in the process of fighting ISIS, this might be a sound comparison. But yes, indiscriminate carpet-bombing is wrong and should be illegal.
Ethnocentric? If Israel was ethnocentric? Then they wouldn’t allow Palestinians into their part of the territory within the boundaries at all. This is just stupid.
I'm an American. I know about tokenism. Your Arab friend doesn't excuse overt ethnic cleansing, the epitome of ethnocentrism.
War crimes pushes it. Israel’s MAG is one of the best. And the structure wouldn’t risk it.
Is that what you want to do?
So AIPAC supports Netanyahu, not Israel? I am honestly asking. I don’t want our military combined with any other country’s military. Period. But I don’t think protesting one genocide is bad because you are not protesting all genocides. And as an American I don’t want to be blamed for trump’s behavior. So then I must fight everyday to have him removed and I am trying.
Yes, AIPAC supports Netanyahu and others like him, so sort of like supporting Trump and Hegseth. Israelis are fighting every day to get rid of him. He’s used Trump’s playbook. And nobody’s saying every time you talk about war criminals you must list them all. That’s not practical. But if all one ever does is point to one human rights violation and won’t bother to learn what Azerbaijan just did to Armenians, Saudi Arabia to Yemenis ..can that person really care about universal human rights?
The problem is that if you say you are against the genocide, if you are against zionism. You are called antisemitic. This happens even to practicing Jewish people. The Israeli lobby has plenty of money to manipulate the population.
That's not what we said in the video. You can be for or against Zionism. You don't get to define it as white supremacy when it was a liberal and socialist project. That is an actual fact. Look up Theodor Herzl. "The Israel lobby has plenty of money to manipulate the population." Well, there you go. Saudi Arabia doesn't? Turkey doesn't? China doesn't? But you think it's only Israel. Why is that?
May I suggest that you look at Qatar or Russia?
The Russians bought the president of the United States. Thanks for asking.
Thank you for saying out loud the problem with the far left. I'm anon religious Jew, but very culturally Jewish. I hate Netanyahu as much as I hate Trump and what they are both doing. Trump is ruining our country as is Netanyahu ruining Israel and causing antisemitism around the world. Israel has a right to exist. Where are the college protests against Russia and what it's doing to Ukraine? Where were the college protests against Hamas? All of it is bad, but what Netanyahu does is NOT my fault nor the fault of Jews around the world. He needs to go to prison, just like Trump. These Americans who blame all Jews need to look themselves in the eye. Are all Americans to blame for what Trump and his sycophants are doing? The same goes for Jews and probably most Israelis.
Exactly right, Ruth. Thank you. This was all we were asking for. Consistency. Russia. Until recently Orban. As you said, Hamas. Egypt. Saudi Arabia. Turkey. Ethiopia. Azerbaijan. We have funded them all. And for the umpteenth time, bc I'll have to keep saying it, Netanyahu is a war criminal. So are the leaders of these other countries. But no college protests against them. Just the Jewish state, which as you said, you and I are not responsible for.
I'll be brief, because I already said it above: 1) Israel alone among the countries you cite is a democracy, and rightfully held to a higher standard of expectation. 2) There is an (organized) effort in support of Palestinian rights, they protest, boycott, etc. Campus demonstrations are part of that. I assume you didn't disagree with other human rights campaigns (against apartheid, for example). So why not Israel, maybe you're the one with the double standard?
W/ respect, I’ll say it again: We are a democracy—what about us? Hungary was rated one of the strongest, most open democracies in the world til Orban was elected, and changed it all. Russia was briefly a democracy. And in Gaza they elected Hamas. This doesn’t hold water. Democracies elect tyrants, you stand up to ALL of them. Equally. 2) I walked out of my classroom to protest Apartheid, of course I agree. But when Protocols of the Elders of Zion style propaganda shows up too, I should be silent? Or If some don’t have the money to fund a movement, we ignore it?
If you’re claiming I’m saying “why not Israel” you clearly didn’t watch the video and are attributing to me things I never said. Bibi, and Israel under him, deserve HEAVY critique. He is a war criminal. I want consistency. Why no movements vs MBS/Saudi Arabia? Against Putin for Ukraine on campuses? Don’t blame American Jews or all Israelis for what Bibi’s done—or you & I are responsible for all Trump’s done. This seems unfair?
Americans ARE to blame for what the Trump regime is doing. Your lauded system of government out gave him power and is failing to hold him to account. Americans talks lot about doing something but ... it is all talk. No action. Always wait until X whensimebody else will do something
And Ruth The same is true of Netanyahu. It's no good simply hating him. Your country funds him. His country supports him. Israel IS to blame for all the death destruction and intentional atrocities it commits. It earns the hate others have for it.
The problem for you is that the Jewish voices who oppose the atrocities are so little heard and in many cases are heard more defending their Jewishness than opposing the atrocity. There is no credible way of walking that fence.
Either you get very much louder and angrier in your opposition or be quieter in your defence. Because you're at the proverbial level of arguing your one black friend proves you're not racist.
People notice that. It is not a good look.
Especially since Israel has been an aggressor and committee of evil acts for decades. Always hiding behind the holocaust and accusing every critic of antisemitism.
It has reached the point where accusations of antisemitism have become meaningless other than as approval of what Israel does.
Bluntly, I support and defend the rights of Jews and groups of any religion and yet am proud to be called antisemitic by israel.
All decent people should be proud to be called antisemitic by Israel. It means Israel knows it is doing wrong and has no defence of it's actions so resorts to the name calling.
And again bluntly every Jewish person who doesn't support Israel's action should be ahead of me in the criticism. They should be louder. They should be more obvious.
Because it is their own reputation to defend. It is their own faith to defend ... against Israel. And they are not being obvious enough for people to notice. For the mediati have no option but to report their criticism.
Jews need to vigorously attack Israel in order to defend their faith.
And leave the rest of us to oppose all other groups that need to be opposed. We're capable of opposing all bad guys.
Thank you so much for this discussion. I continue to be open to learning and understanding the pov of our fellow Jewish Americans. Ignorance is no excuse for being judgemental of any group of people.
Thank you I so appreciate this. As those on The Left, we should all be this way. I’ve been wrong about plenty of things. I want to learn and get it right. We will keep trying to have these conversations. Because context and consistency are crucial. Bibi is evil. But if you’re only ever talking about him then you can’t claim to care about human rights when there are so many other states doing horrific things
I loved this discussion today! I appreciate the directness and honesty. It helps further educate and I couldn’t agree more. I so want to see our multiracial/multi ethnic/ multi religious culture to endure with equality for all! Idealistic to the death I guess. I’ve sent letters to Congress about stopping subsidies across the board for countries and corporations and devoting the time to truly review the need, intent etc so we quit subsidizing genocide in so many countries and so much more. Then I see the likes of Hegseth representing the US at Normandy and I could literally cry! What an utter fool! Anyway thank you!
Thank you so much, Liz. That’s how Julie and I felt. It is important. We can’t be frightened to talk to family. And that’s what we all our. Once you become scared to do that, or just accept conventional wisdom, you’re either MAGA or corporate media, respectively. And we are neither.
It is because people are against genocide, no matter who it is targeting and they may be against the government. That is probably their definition.
Well, ok. So why is nobody on The Left talking about Saudi Arabia, who we fund, whose govt has never been elected, who murders raped women and bombed 100,000 Yemenis into oblivion? What does Saudi Arabia do that makes their behavior worth nary a mention?
We do talk about SA, and others. You find it convenient to ignore those protests and only notice ones in favour of Palestinians.
In my country I can be arrested on terrorism charges if I demonstrate to support Palestine. Many white haired elderly ladies have been. I am not arrested if I demonstrate to support Israel
There is a clear double standard in many western countries .. in favour of Israel.
"Why is that?" Cliff.
I’ll say it then you can call me, the old Jewish woman an anti Semite. Conflating anti Zionism with anti semitism is the anti Semitism of this era. My 100 % Jewish ,h were never Zionist.. Their great sin was American assimilation
We don't conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semtism and I quite clearly say that in the video. You can be for or against it. You just don't get to define it as something it's not. It is not racism. It is not white supremacy. It is Jewish self-determination. A homeland, that was taken away. And I'll wait for everyone here in America to give their homes back to Native Americans, including you and me, and then we'll leave and go...where? Or only Israelis are required to do this?
You may not. Israel most certainly does, every day.
Ok Cliff that’s cool. You make a lot of great points and those nations should also be called out. Is it fair to say that netenyahu and his murdering thugs are assholes? I think we can all agree that they are acting like assholes.
My friend, I appreciate your saying that. I really do. Wrt your second point, I don’t know how many times I said it in the video, but I’ll say it again: Bibi and his murdering thugs are assholes. Actually they’re not…that’s too nice.
He’s a war criminal. Indicted criminal. Racist. Evil democracy-attacking, rw POS who should rot in The Hague til his final breath. Please tell me that’s clear enough? Bibi’s like Trump, Putin, Orban, MBS. But let’s not just go after the Jew, but point out the horror show they all are.
Israel is an apartheid state that can’t even support itself, lives off US tax dollars.
Marsha , you know Stephen Miller's Jewish, yes? You can't say "I'm Jewish" & just say anti-Semitic things like "lives off US tax dollars?" Would you say that about African nations we rightly helped w USAID pre-DOGE? Or just Israel? Where Rabin gave his life for peace as Arafat ditched a deal w 97% of his demands met--he was scared to die. Re apartheid, especially under war criminal BIbi, I'm sure there's been discrimination, abuse, murder.
But apartheid has a meaning, you can't make it up. Israel has a Palestinian Supreme Court Justice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Kabub). That's not apartheid. Why not stick to truth & not slurs? Bibi = Trump, Likud his enablers, all are evil/belong in The Hague, kill Gazan kids. Isn't that enough w/out attacking every Israeli (we have Trump, so you killed Alex Peretti? Am I getting collective responsibility right?). The facts are damning enough.
I know he is a fascist
Criticism,of Israel is not anti semitic!and Israel lives off money from the IS and Uzk, while they burn houses of palestiniians, particulary i. Gaza. I was helping to support a family in Gaza, . They are ll dead now, houses and business bombed. Ill quit Cliff but you should read first hsnd reports,
Y from the USA and the UK… that’s the purpose of AIPAC.you j
This is why cliff is one of the best.
Thank you, my friend, that is kind of you to say. I'm just trying to fight propaganda and bring consistency, context, nuance and history to conversations that have been sorely lacking lately.
Stephen Miller Ustinov the right of his parents,
I mean I get your point about how Israel is not being treated the same way as China, and other places but is the US actively participating in and funding those other injustices? And how actually true is it that this is a huge problem with the left. Yes, you’re going to get some self-described lefties spewing illiberal ideas but is that a problem inherit to leftist ideas or just a rando people problem?
If you watch the video you'll see may examples of those we're actively funding. Saudi Arabia. Over 100,000 dead Yemenis due to their bombing. We supply them with arms, fund them. We have funded Egypt. Syria. Somalia. Ethiopia. All have had mass killings. We gave weapons to Azerbaijan, who ethnically cleansed Armenians in Artsakh. But nobody has anything to say about those poor people killed. I call Netanyahu a war criminal. But so are the leaders of those other countries who have committed those atrocities. In fact you didn't even know they were happening or that we were funding those countries, as you just asked about it. I'm not insulting you, I'm saying why is it you know only about the crimes of the Jewish leader? Have you lost relatives in pogroms or a Holocaust? Do you think you might get why Jews are concerned? Have you ever told someone of another race to cool it, no biggie?
Cliff, I am Jewish, I am left, I hate AIPAC! They are right wing, without going into this now..I worked for your father at WBCN, back in the day.
People like Kamala brought out anti semites by refusing to allow even one question about occupied Palestine , talk about that! Talk about AIPAC funding terrible racist Dems…you are breaking my heart .
Marsha, you are not the first to think Danny Schechter was my dad. He was not. I knew him, appreciated him, but you'll notice the different spelling of our names. I used to joke and call him "dad" when I saw him places. As for AIPAC and Bibi, I loathe them. But you're really going to go with the "Kamala brought out the anti-Semites?" She wouldn't end our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Why are you not upset about their mass killing? She wouldn't end our relationship with Turkey. See Armenian genocide. And Kurds massacred. But I don't hear you talking about that. Just the Jewish state. The one that offered the peace agreement that Arafat rejected, that Abbas rejected, that got Rabin killed--he sacrificed his life for peace w Palestinians. But you're blaming every Israeli, as opposed to say, Bibi. Which I guess makes you responsible for everything Trump does?
Thanks for ending my confusion about Danny. I should have noticed myself. The word in my circle was that you are his son. oops.
I’ll stick with my remarks about Kamala! I watched in real time as she refused to deal with questions about occupied historic Palestine.She actually refused questions,!
The corrupting influence of AIPAC,especially among Democrats has eliminated the option of a actual euro style social democratic style party. I know that isn’t the only reason but it certainly adds.
Demands for towing the Zionist line has made the Dems intolerable to many, incuding me, I have only lived in blue states so I always vote Green . Progressives hate Israel because it is a racist settlor colonial state, now engaged in genocide. I’m friends with the sonn of a famous general, who is a leftist. There are actually two , Israel is the Algeria of this era.
“Occupied Palestine.” You mean Gaza, which is fully under Hamas control or the West Bank, which the PA agreed to a joint sharing agreement with Oslo. Stop using words that you don’t understand and stop infantilizing a population for shit that you wouldn’t tolerate from anyone else and, for the love of god, stop treating Jews differently than you do others. Unless you are going to argue that Americans should be prosecuted for the urban war in Mosul.
My long time penpal and his whole family in Gaza were murdered by Israel,homes and business bombed after his sister married some Hamas guy
It wasn’t under Hamas control when their houses and business were distressed .., and what of it was?
I appreciate the nod to open dialogue.
What you are leaving out is the aggressiveness that Zionism has *always* exhibited. From Herzl's forumlation to "colonize" Palestine, to "land without a people for a people without a land," to the 1956 pre-emptive strike on Egypt (who was defending the Canal, not attacking Israel) etc etc. The excuse that American and British colonialists did it too, so why not Jews, is a really poor one. The Israeli right to exist is being forfeited, just like the US Confederates and the German Third Reich forfeited theirs.
Many/most of my best friends are Jews, some of them remain Zionists. I worry on their behalf
I appreciate your first line. Re the rest: Why is Israel the only country asked to forfeit land when WWI and WWII artificially drew many lines, and Israel’s been around longer than more than half the countries in the world? Are you American? If so, you’ll return your land to Native Americans tomorrow, yes?
As for 1956, Nasser wasn’t defending anything, he was blocking Israeli access to the Canal—ie their shipping. An act of war But I guess, again, Israel’s the only country that must take that shit and not respond?
Remind me, who attacked who Yom Kippur ‘73? In ‘48, as soon as Israel was a state they were attacked by Arab militias and many Arab states. In ‘67 Egypt expelled UN peacekeepers, mobilized troops in Sinai, cut off Israeli shipping. Shall I go on? None of this justifies BIbi the murderous slug who should be in The Hague. But you tell on yourself by comparing a country for Jewish self determination w the Third Reich and Confederates.
You’ve twisted the story about Egypt in ‘56. Nasser was threatening everyone’s access to the canal, mostly the British, by claiming control over it as was provided in the treaty of 1856. The Israeli’s thought they could piggy back on Britain and France’s military efforts to retain the status quo ante and pre-emptively hit the Arab enemy. Like I said, Zionist aggression.
And, a true question: Are you guys alleging that with 78 years of existence, Israel is older than half the world’s countries? I suppose that could be true, but, even so, it’s like the “right to exist” construct: You don’t get to be a country because of either a “right to exist” or some longevity test. Not the right criteria
Look, I get it that Israel was promised a homeland. And that Zionists have tried to make it happen with both legal and illegal means for nearly 150 years. And that anti-Jewish elements are a real problem. I’ve spent most of my life thinking “the good guys”—the Jews I know and the US gov’t I’m supposed to have some influence over—were working out a 2-state solution, something reasonable for everyone. Finding out that that was an obfuscating lie has been a trauma.
But today’s world is just not going to accept the tactics of Meyer Kehane, Baruch Goldstein or Bezalel Smotrich which is what is apparently (to all) happening in today’s Zionist state
"The Israeli right to exist is being forfeited" <-- why is Israel the only country in the world that has to defend its right to exist? They've been a country to close to 80 years already. They are older than well more than half of the countries of the world. Does anybody ever ask any other country to justify its existence?
No. Easy answers to easy questions my friend.
And I wonder why that’s the case….
You don’t deal with my point about Zionist aggression. Construing children shot in the head or chest and whole towns reduced to rubble as “defending” takes too much denial and the world is sick of it.
And pretending it’s an “easy answer to an easy question” is part of the problem.
And you don’t contend w mine. Why have you not returned your land to Native Americans, or it’s just ok for you? Zionist aggression, really? I mean you’re really going w that pablum (and anti-Semitism, but you have “Jewish friends” so it’s good). Have you seen what’s happened in Syria?
Would you make the same comment when kids were gassed to death—600,000 massacred? But I guess you and the world aren’t “sick” of that and you’d never say about an Arab country what you just said about Israel bc that would make you racist, right? So just Jews. It’s ok to smear them. Now please tell me when you’ll be turning the keys to your house over to the Native American tribe that once lived there.
Well maybe you think those Native Americans have the right to violently demand the keys to my house or yours. Seems to be the Zionist way… but NOT the Jewish way. Please don’t do that cheap shot.
Yes -- it's an ugly war, and many (including Cliff, and me) think that Israel has gone too far in their response. But what does that have to do with Israel's forfeiting their right to exist? Does anyone say that about any other country in the world? And, do you recall who started the current war on October 7 with unspeakable atrocities? And do you recall how many supported Hamas' attacks *even before Israel responded*? Now what does *that* say?
What are the limits to how ugly the war(s) get? What are the consequences of the current ugliness?
I think those are the questions being asked around the world.
Don’t shoot the messenger, please.
Look… terms like “Zionists” get confounded with”Israeli” and “Jewish”… terms like “Americans” get confounded with “White Nationalosm…. terms like Muslims” get confounded with “terrorists” and “antisemitic”…. terms like “protestors” gets confounded with “woke” and “enemies” of the state… are you starting to get it. These are all examples of the simple cognitive distortion called “overgeneralization” which itself exists when the elements of each group of confounded terms have different set sizes. For example the set size of “Zionists” is smaller than the set size of “Jewish” people. Because this is so obvious the question naturally arises as to why such cognitive distortions occur. And, the rather obvious motivation would be to “make a point”, the point usually being to justify a self-serving belief system. There is really therefore no reason to debate what this means or what that means, because when stripped to it’s logical basis it becomes clear that folks that argue this way are merely trapped in their own subjective echo chamber…. Please give THAT a thought. By the way this is one reason for the Buddhist warning against “name rupa”… names and labels.
Not buying it—or it’d happen equally. Just one small group attacked by: The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Black Death Massacres, East European Pogroms, Dreyfus Affair, Khmelnytsky Uprising, 2K yrs of passion plays & blood libel, Kielce Pogrom, Holocaust, Post-WWII Arab World Riots, Farhud
1/3 of its world population systematically incinerated..the same group magically blamed for a shitty leader murdering ppl when shitty leaders in non-democracies we fund are murdering ppl (Saudi, Syria, Ethiopia, etc).
Julie had a great phrase—goi-splaining. You’re goi-splaining. Would you tell Black Americans they make too big a deal of the Tulsa Massacre? If it’s all the same, why does the FBI report 2% of US pop that’s Jewish victims of 70% of religion-based hate crimes in 2024? Are you starting to get it?
Cliff interrupted his guest and ruined her message waaay too many times for me to finish this video. Put your ego and personal story aside and let her continue her train of thought, Cliff. It’s the rule of interviewing.
But it wasn’t an interview. It was a conversation. We both planned to share stories bc we’ve both dealt w it, Joan. The rule of conversation. Converse.
However you wanna view me/what transpired knowing that, all good w me.
Take turns - the rule of conversation. No talking over either.
Yes, I'm sure your conversations, especially over Facetime or Zoom, go exactly like that.
The USA is the oddest funder of Israel. China funds itself
Biggest
I'll say it again: Saudi Arabia. Turkey. Ethiopia. Egypt. Azerbaijan. We have funded them all. All have committed atrocities. I haven't seen you say one thing about any of them. WHY?
When recounting or summarizing the origin and history of Zionism, shouldn't we include Jabotinsky along with Herzl?
Jews were excluded from the country/golf club in St. Louis Park, MN in the 60’s.
Kielce was the town the Jews were killed when they returned ✌🏽